What we're talking about today, the future of human centered leadership. So a quick bit of housekeeping. The only housekeeping really need is that we're gonna be putting questions on the screen periodically. We would invite you to respond to those questions. We'd love this opportunity, to share if when when you're responding, In chat, if you can share with everyone, and that can help us generate content that everyone can learn from. And that's why we're here. It was important for ExperiencePoint to make this happen because we've heard loud and clear from many of you that one of the great assets ExperiencePoint has access to folks like you, this global community of of thought leaders and practitioners, and there's so much we can learn from each other, and that's our intention here. This month saw the opening of the much anticipated movie very hyped about, about Napoleon Bonaparte. And one of the takeaways for movies like this is that so many leadership principles remain unchanged over centuries. And by the way, this is not me endorsing the the movie. I've never seen the movie nor endorsing the man. I I've actually never got the chance to meet Napoleon Bonaparte. But It's clear when you watch these sorts of biopics about leaders, there are always these familiar patterns. But In the last, say, like, half decade, it seems that something has changed. The the rapid pace of technological and societal change the wants and and needs of the people that we serve, especially, emerging generations, the ebb and flow, of globalization things like complexity of coming back into the office, polarizes politics, increasingly polarizing politics, have combined in ways that seem to demand more of leaders today, and that's why at this time we'll discuss shaping the future, of human centered leadership. And it's a great honor to introduce our panel of experts in human centered leadership. First, I'll share in the order that I see you. Gretchen Spreitzer or Gretchen. I wonder if you'd be so kind just to introduce yourself. Yes. Thank you, Andrew. It's great to be with you all, this morning, from beautiful Ann Arbor, Michigan. Where it's snowy, this morning for all of you in warm climates. I am a management and organization professor here at the Ross School of Business, and I've been studying positive leadership and positive organizational scholarship for many years trying to understand what it means to empower people and help them to thrive, not just survive in their work. More recently, I've begin, to be in roles where I'm able to practice that leadership as well. So I'm the associate dean for core at an executive relations here at Michigan Ross. And as part of my portfolio, I, get to oversee our career development office, helping our students find the right jobs, in this changing economy I also oversee all of our action based learning, the kind of learning that happens outside of the classroom, including the kind of simulations that I use with, experience change. And then, finally, our executive education. So all the non degree, lifelong learning where we go out to companies to help develop their leadership potential as well as bring in folks here, to our facility to help them develop their full potential as well. So I'm excited to share with you some of the insights we have both from research and practice around human centered leadership. Thank you. And thank you for being here. As you were sharing just now and and earlier with us, the scope of your responsibilities, the note that I took was everything. Seems you're you're doing everything now. No. There's a lot of other people doing a lot of stuff here, but I love the work I'm doing. It's very, fulfilling. Great. I I don't know if you know this, Gretchen, you first started working with ExperiencePoint in two thousand nine, around the same time. I was lucky to start working with ExperiencePoint. In that time since then you've delivered, eighty one ExperienceChange sessions to over twenty four hundred people. And you've had a huge influence on ExperiencePoint, in the way that we think you just shared an example of how you challenged us to explore working with students earlier. I just also wanted to note that I I just reread your book, How to be a Positive Leader, Kiki. I wonder if it's a link we we could share I'm glad that this is a perspective you can bring because one of the things I was, again, struck by in this book is there are littleish things that leaders can do human centered leaders and human centered ways to have an outsized impact on organizations, not to say that they're easy things, But there are small changes that can have a big impact. So glad for you to bring that perspective. Yeah. Thank you so much. I think that's an important point. It's not have to be these big heroic culture changes. I mean, those are important too, but it's the little things you do every day. The routines you build the way you treat people that really carries a lot of weight. Thank you. And next, Jess, would you be so kind? Sure. Great to be here with you all and excited for the conversation today. So I'm Jess Munroe. I'm based here in San Jose, California, and I've been leading innovation and organizational culture design work for about two decades, starting at IDEO, and now with my own management design practice, Revelateur. And I really love to work with executives and founders to bring a lot of the methodologies of human centered design and adaptive leadership to to bear on their companies, on their projects. I also teach at Stanford at, the design school there and have had the pleasure of co teaching classes with David Kelly, the founder. Who, human values in design as well as design for influence and really thinking about how how does how do I show up and what are my has my unique background and unique, kind of wholesale influence the way that I lead. I also, had the the the pleasure of getting to cast some future vision for higher ed. And we had some provocative questions that we put out to the world such as, you know, what if students declared a mission, not a major? So I love Gretchen what you're talking about with action based learning and how do we really help, immerse students early on in some of the the really challenging questions and problems of time that you alluded to, Andrew. And how do we help them to really navigate ambiguity with confidence? Thank you. Thank you, Jess. And, Jess, I I know, you've served just all kinds of very diverse organizations. Also had a huge influence on ExperiencePoint developing people on our team and even, with your network connections and knowledge helping, in our community, giving efforts to make connections for us. So Thank you for for all that you do. Thanks for being here for the community as well. I also wanted to know, for anyone who hasn't read, Creative Access Curious People out of the d school. It's made for people just like us. It it has Jess's fingerprints all over it. And and Jess, I referenced when you first shared it with me, you said, it's full of the greatest hits of facilitated exercises and icebreakers. So, thanks for turning us on to it. And I I think that's sort of valuable to everyone as well. And last, certainly, not least Ignacio, would you be so kind, please? Oh, and thank thank you, Andrew. I'm glad you invite me to to share the stage today. I'm Ignacio Guitart from Barcelona Spain. I'm a consultant and a facilitator and a lecture at Esade Business School in Barcelona and in some other business schools, around the world, mainly in in Peru. I I live in Barcelona, but, I work, in, assignments or I have work in, in assignments all over the world. Which is very interesting because it it satisfies my curiosity in terms of understanding how people decode the reality that surrounds them in different places of the world, how their cultural and sociological background has a very interesting impact in not the reality but in the reality they decode and taking into account that we are talking about managers and leaders and that the their main challenge is the decision making process, the in the out, how this affects in, feeding the process with, real and authentic information. Thank you and Ignacio for joining in your later afternoon. I know you've delivered transformation projects all over the world. You've also delivered our our workshops over the world. Forgot to cite some of your stats just, but you've delivered just in a huge body of work, just the work that you've done with us. You've touched over thirteen hundred leaders. Ignacio and and our decade plus working together, you've delivered a a hundred and sixty one sessions across multiple continents and touched over forty seven hundred leaders in that time. So it's it's a thrill to be working with some all stars here today. We're gonna want to hear from the panelists, of course, from everyone else also, but let's get started, with maybe a a few stories. So I'll I'll get us started with one, but panelists will ask you to to process and think about, an example as well. A recent episode of working with leaders that you think kind of illustrates what leaders are expected to deliver and and maybe how that has evolved, in the last few months or even years. So an example, I was working with, a leadership team, at a health care system, just a couple of weeks ago. They're trying to build patient centric capability. That's not super new. They said historically they would have shopped this work out to consult though, and and they're trying to get to a point where they'd internalize it because it's not financially viable. That also may be not super new, interesting and and useful, of course. But the thing that they mentioned that feels new to me is that one of the reasons they want to internalize this capability now also is because their team feels a a low agency in decision making. This is feedback that they're consistently getting directly like that and seeing it take other shapes. So the notion of competing on experience, not just care, the mandate to outsource less that feels consistent with, our client base. Again, what feels new is the recognition that agency will drive outcomes. So a couple of years ago, during, like, the the the great talent shift, a lot of people were looking at a employee experience to retain talent, But this and some other clients, they're looking at employee experience to drive outcomes, which is is refreshing. And, of course, how to use generative AI throughout these journeys is is is another note. But I wonder if I could turn it over to you. I'll go backwards and from the direction that we did the introductions, Ignacio. Would you be so good? Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I am currently working for, medical devices company. They are in a full transformation mode moving from a business to business thing, to a business to consumer thing. Right? Still, they feel it's more about doing something different or doing different things rather than adopting a different mindset. For instance, becoming a business to consumer organization means that you are going to move backwards from consumers, which means, knowing and understanding what is happening outside. But still, they are relying heavily in secondary sources reports, industry reports, and they feel very comfortable with this because at the end of the day, secondary sources is like just, I mean, a confirmation tool. So they go through the different reports and they feel very secure as the reports they translate. We are in the best way, in the best possible way. We are in good shape. We are going to make it. Right? So they are just looking for confirmation. And still when I asked them, what do you think you are going? What what do you think you you should do? To become a real business to consumer company. And they panic. They they they they they put everything on neutral on hold, not knowing very much what to do beyond going to their standards. Secondary sources, industry reports, etcetera. So they have no curiosity in knowing and understanding what is a consumer. But the funny thing is that they feel perfectly comfortable They are not panicking. They are not in full hysteria. They they they they think I yeah. We are going to make it. It's more of the same. Period. So, I mean, the task ahead is dramatic is phenomenal. In the sense that it's not about doing more or doing different, but it's about how can we make them understand that it's about adopting a new mindset. If they don't do it, they will never make it. And they they are going to be very successful as a company but still it's the business to business thing. I I am going to in a moment, thank you Ignacio ask Jess and Gretchen for your own stories, but it's interesting in that, we've got an expert here on curiosity, Jess, in activating curiosity, sounds like is one one of the things that organization needs, Gretchen, you're probably ahead as well. It was the chapter in the book you created curated on the when you outsource inspiration to the customer, it feels like they're. Jess, Gretchen, any reactions to Ignacio's stories before you share your own? Yeah. I I think we are in a world where there is, you know, more fear and, hesitation and how do we fortify people to operate in that kind of environment is really, really important. And those big significant strategic changes, how do we help people in your case fromB to B,C to B, to B to B, you know, how do we fortify people to be ready for those kind of big changes? Great. And while you've got the the conch would you, have you any examples for us? Yes. Absolutely. So, you know, a term that we're using a lot with the clients that we're working with is VUCA. So we live in a VUCA world, a world that is volatile uncertain, complex and ambiguous. You know, maybe ten years ago, people said we lived in a VUCA world, but now it's VUCA on steroids, and things are changing rapidly. And so one organization that, I'm working with is talking about VUCA is much more complicated in an environment where people work in a hybrid environment. Why is that so different? Well, because we aren't altogether, the things we used to do just normally where it's like when a a big issue comes up, a mini crisis of sorts, we would huddle together. We'd pull people together in the hallway and, you know, in the conference room, and we'd say, okay, we've got this issue. You know, how are we gonna how are we gonna solve it? How are we gonna work together? And in a hybrid world, you've got some people who are here, and then some people are working virtually, and you end up, you know, maybe, over, focused on the people who happen to be in the office, and then that's leaving out people that might have a really important voice that might be virtual that day or maybe even have a more virtual position. And so we're having to help people think about how do we still create those kind of dynamics where we can problem solve together bring people together, allow people to have a voice in, challenging situations in this kind of hybrid world that we're in, right now. And so, you know, thinking about different kind of, you know, channels for bringing people together, but I think we still gravitate to that in person face to face when it becomes a difficult issue. And so how do we adapt that? In a hybrid world. I think is an important issue for many companies, but this one, in particular, that I'm working with right now. Thanks for the example. It does resonate. I'm sure for many of us, we'd we'd hear that in the organizations we work in or or with the clients that we serve I'll just build on that would also be something that we've seen in addition to those moments of problem solving when we're wrangling people together We've heard some organizations point to the deterioration in the how people live their values to the fact that people aren't together. You don't see those values role model. And, you know, I I wonder if there that's a a question we could tag on to the how do we solve these acute problems could the cumulative effect of solving those problems be the transfer of this ways of being that we'd love the organization to exhibit? And I would just add on to that piece. I think one piece the research is showing is that when people are operating in a hybrid environment, it's harder to have that day to day micro mentoring that's so important. It it has to be a lot more intentional because it it it we aren't having those, you know, quick conversations where we're, you know, in the break room together. And so the mentoring piece in particular seems a really important piece to address. Micro mentoring because it's there's less opportunity. Oh, thank you for that. And Jess please. Yes. And just to tag on to that as well, I think the importance of those serendipitous exchanges are really being lost in in the in the virtual world. And so, orchestrated serendipity is something that I'm curious about designing for from a perspective. So in terms of an example of a recent client, so in also another healthcare example, what we're seeing is that having a seamless front door experience is becoming table stakes, especially for the millennial and gen z audience. They are, you know, putting a lot of pressure on big, you know, big healthcare organizations who have typically operated face to face in the past and and been innovative. But in this case, the pressure to have a really seamless virtual front door where you can you know, visit have patient, doctor physician meetings seamlessly, you know, the, health care management academy tells us that eighty percent of this generation will actually switch providers. There's not a low based on convenience alone and one in six millennials she leave a provider based on the level of tech. So they're they're applying kind of a consumer tech mindset of, oh, yeah, here's the Nordstrom app, or here's how I shop and my health care organization should have that same level of quality in order for me to engage with them. So we're hearing from a lot of health organizations you know, how do we how do we kind of come up to speed in that digital space? How do we make ourselves appealing? Actually these generations. And so what we're starting to see is, this has been interesting is actually having these large corporations hire former serial entrepreneurs. So tech entrepreneurs who have done this, with multiple companies founded from scratch built software from the ground up And so we're starting to see bringing those those skill sets in house and really putting pressure on those rapid learning cycles and getting, you know, getting getting new products out the door quickly in a way that meets the demand for this tech savvy generation. This tech savvy generation that you mentioned is making choices not just by, you know, the underlying offer or relationships, but by tech. By interface? Exactly. Yeah. Wow. Great. Thank you. The fun use of of AI to triage patients as well to help, you know, get them to the specialist faster. It's another trend we are seeing. Yeah. And undoubtedly, we'll have a couple more AI. Stories or examples to share. Thanks for those that are contributing in chat with a few examples, as well as a a few, reactions. For example, Bruce sharing for the purposes of increasing increasing workload in a hybrid or remote work, people are fundamentally swamped and don't have time for learning or building relationships And Everett, similar to that. Thanks, Everett. Creating the opportunity for those crucial conversations for leaders and teams to engage is more difficult in a hybrid construct. So the, orchestrated serendipity is one pathway in maybe Jess, and thanks for sharing that. So everyone now would love for you all if you wanna warm up those fingers and and get into chat. So, of course, we'll hear from the the panel as well, but what are the specific skills that leaders are seeking to develop that that you're seeing? So what are some of the specific skills that leaders are seeking to develop? K. As we're oh, where I was gonna give an example, but it looks like we've got thoughts coming in already. Leah, that is culture work, great digital skills, Arturo. Change management, And as they're coming in, so so many of us here have used the ExperienceChange simulation, many of us for for years and years. I wonder, Gretchen and Ignacio, you you would serve a lot of clients in the the change space and how is the how have the needs around change sorry, changed, over the last few years. Well, one, quote I've heard recently that I'm using, often is that I used to say change is a constant, and now I'm saying change is changing. I mean, change is getting more more complicated these days for the VUCA reasons, for the hybrid reasons, what I was, sharing earlier. About, twenty years ago, I did a research study that looked at the early identification of high potentials, and the key predictor we found that would help identify people earlier in their careers that would be successful, throughout their careers with something, called learning from experience. So if change is changing and the world is more complicated, we need people that can be learning from their experiences as they're having them. We can't necessarily expect always the organization will say This is a new skill you have or that we need, and here's how you're gonna develop it. We need people to be learning from all their everyday experiences. And a key piece of that is is reflection, reflecting on those experiences, asking for feedback, and learning as you go because we don't necessarily we can't necessarily predict next year. Are there gonna be new skills, you know, that are gonna be required? Who would have predicted generative AI would take, you know, such a big jump in such a short period time. And so I feel like that ability to learn from experiences is really crucial. And then one more I'll just put out there is what I would call is emotional management, emotional intelligence, but also how we manage our own emotions. I have a colleague here at Michigan. His name is Ethan Cross. He wrote a great book called Chatter. And it's all about the kind of chatter that we have going on in our heads all time. You know, am I good enough, you know, imposter syndrome, you know, oh, ruminating about something that happened earlier today instead of focusing on the future. And so I think that issue of emotion may how we help how we manage our own emotions, keep ourselves calm in this complicated environment of change that we are in right now. So I would say learning from experiences, one, and then two, emotion management are two new skills that I see gaining a lot of promise. And and so to confirm, change is changing, but a a constant is things are going to change. And so we need to be able to learn from experience but having experience is not the same as learning from experience. Exactly. Right. We could go through life with lots of experiences, and we're immediately moving on to the next thing or ruminating about, you know, something that happened in the past, but to really reflect on it, what would I have done differently seeking out feedback from people I was working with. How did you experience that? You know, is there a way we could have improved it for the for the next time. All of those kind of things being proactive about learning, from all the experiences that we have in our everyday life. One tip I valued from the book is, like, reflection has a constant daily writing exercise can overwhelm as simple as, like, once a week get some journaling done. It wouldn't have the same impact. I'm gonna turn it over to you Ignacio, but, Jess, I just wanna give you a heads up. Empathy has come up a few times, and I know that a big part of your work. So I'll be coming to you with the house, the how are the needs around empathy changing, but Ignacio, you you're on the hook now. That change in the work that you do. How do you see things change? I mean, every time I attend a meeting where a CEO is doing his or her speech about the grand vision of the future. What's ahead for the company? I pay attention to the audience and many many times what I can see is panic and terror in the audience because when it's about change, it's about like promising the land of milk and honey in the sense that we are going to become world leaders. We are going to be at the vine where the stock is going to skyrocket, etcetera, etcetera. But at the end of the day, it's about thinking about what's in it for me. A very, a very, easy, easy, example. The the expenses, the employees pay in advance when they are traveling, etcetera. How often the company has a very super system to track the expenses, but the expenses are paid after, sixty days, ninety days, etcetera, right, or more than that. And the message is, yeah, maybe the system is awesome. It works with the ERP. It's accountable. You can track everything, etcetera. But, you know, I pay this ninety days ago, where is my money? You make my life miserable. No matter the ERP is the best in class. So there's always a promise of we are going to make it together. It will be it will be like again the land of milk and honey. But again, just just meet some people at at the at the cafeteria and ask them how they feel with the new ERP, and they are going to tell you now my life has become miserable. And maybe it's just because the expenses are paid ninety days afterwards. So the what's in it for me when we talk about change to me is crucial because sure it will do good. To the company and the share shareholders. But what about the crew? I think that this would be emotional thing that Gretchen was was stating a minute ago. Well, thanks for for that, Ignacio. And and that tip that is, like, what might be incongruent is the what what shared at scale versus people's emotional experience. We we've heard recently from, some folks that are expert in the the space of, diagnostics assessments, they would say that the pendulum is swinging so far. There are much new data available to us, to to track the the the what, of employee experience, but under standing the why where there's a a growing gap in in how much energy organizations put into that. And I see Bruce, Vivek, others have mentioned things like, maybe we are letting slip some of those relationship skills that might enable us to go into the cafeteria and ask those questions. Jess, I will turn it over to you now. Things like, I can't find it now, but I did see Garrett had mentioned empathy, although it might not be labeled empathy and some other similar responses like that. What about the empathy as an eternal skill, what's changing and how people need to receive empathy? Yeah. Great question. So I'll answer it in two ways. One is sort of empathy for customers and your products and services that you're creating. And then, empathy for your peers and those that you're leading, in your teams. So one example of a recent company I've been working with is a health tech within a pharma organization who takes fuzzy opportunities to proof of concept. And what we're seeing there is actually an increased need to cross train their business leads in design research and empathy for patients up front. So I we're actually sort of seeing a shift from multidisciplinary teams to multidisciplinary leaders. And what's interesting there is because they're charged with understanding their target market enough to actually, you know, identify a specific, you know, product that they wanna launch, figure out, you know, where it, you know, is it in Europe, is it in Asia? How do we how do we understand our audience and our patients well enough to to ensure that this proof of concept goes as planned. They they're we're really seeing, you know, people that come from a business strategy perspective, having to go really deep with empathy for the patients and customers upfront. And so they're cross training in, you know, in some of the design research capabilities as well as operational capabilities. So we're really seeing, you know, it's kind of a requirement, a fairly heavy requirement for people to wear a lot of those different hats, from a product perspective. From a a relational perspective of empathy, I'd say that we're really seeing an emphasis on adaptive leadership and at the d school, we talk about helping navigate ambiguity with confidence. And some of what that looks like is having the the awareness of the the the your your fellow leaders. How do they what are the whole self ask that they're bringing to the table. You know, what are their unique intelligences and superpowers? What are the aspects of their identity? That they bring to the table, their, ethnicity or their cultural background or even their faith. And how do you start to be curious about the person in front of you? And kind of in the same way that you would ask, questions and be curious about a potential customer ask the same, you know, in that same posture of curiosity with routine members and the people in front of you. And and Graham Herbert and and others have mentioned as well that Graham says connecting and appreciating the uniqueness of others and valuing working with the difference, that sort of, inclusivity of belongingness. I'm sure many of us are trying to do better with that as well. I I just wanted to come back to the from multidisciplinary teams as someone who's been, you know, saying to the world, we need more multidisciplinary teams to now We need more multidisciplinary leaders. You you said that that's a that's a a big shift. So thoughts from you, Jess, or or Gretchen, Ignacio on challenges associated with making that transition? Jess do you mind getting us started? What are some of the challenges you? Yeah. So, I mean, obviously, people we've talked about t shaped people at IDEO for for many, many years, where you have a depth and a specialty and then you have a breadth where you have a lot of appreciation for people in other disciplines and and whatnot. And so I think what we're seeing is kind of maybe thickening the top of the tea, if you will. Right. Okay. And so, and potentially, you know, starting to maybe add other small depth areas along the way. And so I think that what we're seeing because of, again, just the changing landscape that we all find ourselves in an increased requirement to be fluent in, you know, in business skills if you're someone that comes in as a design researcher or likewise, you know, someone who's who's operationalizing something, how do you not just think in systems, but how do you incorporate this appreciation of people? And so I'd say it's it's a heavy lift, but we're starting to see, I guess, maybe a thickening of that, the the the top of the te. I'd love to hear Gretchen, not the only reactions you have, but just on the the tea, I have to share, like, the the sign of a real snobby designer is when they say, I'm at least pie shaped. And I've heard that way more than once. Any any other thoughts on on that sort of a shift or Yeah. But I'm I I I think that, the almighty leader doesn't exist. Maybe we have Polymat persons that have a wide range of, knowledge competencies, etcetera. But the almighty doesn't exist. Right? So I think we we can we we cannot expect anything from them on on that site. And to me, I mean, I think that The most important thing is not not coming with the answers, but being able to come up with the right questions. And then listening and paying attention. And if you are skilled enough, and influencing your team to make their own questions, then you you you will be able to take some holidays during the year. Because if you are the only person who make the right questions at the end of the year, I mean, the moment you are you you are a sick or you are on holidays, everything is put on hold. Right? So it it combines, humility, it combines this empathy, this curiosity thing, but it's about We don't have the answers because as Gretchen was saying, I mean, the world outside is changing. It's always the blank page, but it's about it's about having the courage to come up and say, I don't know, but I will make the right questions or my team is going to make the right questions and I will be able to come back to you with something that make sense. Over to you, Gretchen? Yeah. So, just one more point on kind of the multidisciplinary, piece. So we use a lot in our leadership development, action based learning or action learning teams where we bring together in small groups people from different functions or disciplines of the organization to work on strategic problems. So maybe they'll come and, spend some time with us for, you know, three or four days, and then they go off and they work on these projects. And it's a great opportunity to network and learn with people from different functions some topic of strategic interest. So maybe how is how is generative AI, you know, changing how we do our supply chain as an example of the kind of strategic topics. And then they work on that together for six months, and then they come back and they, you know, share insights with the senior leadership team and with others who, that work is relevant to. But to build that multidisciplinary perspective by getting people from dis different disciplines working together on projects of strategic interest. And, that that's kind of a segue into a next question about what is changing about the way you develop leaders that sounds like one example. Any wrapper thoughts on the multidisciplinary teams would love to to hear let's also transition. And for those not on the panel, would love to see your thoughts or reactions to this question, in chat as well. But Jess, haven't heard from you for a moment. What is changing about the way that you develop leaders? So I say at the at this the design school, the d school at Stanford, we've been really looking at going from, individual kind of micro skills to looking at some of the meta abilities. So as I was hinting at earlier, the idea of navigating ambiguity is one of the meta abilities that we've been growing our kind of resource base in and helping students to to be really well equipped in and and well versed in and to have that level of, comfort level with ambiguity. And I think that comes from then diving into some of those more specific skills around saying, okay, I'm feeling stuck. How do I get unstuck? You know, how do I oh, okay. I can go and and talk to a potential customer, or I can go borrow an an an a skill from my, you know, fellow entrepreneurs and run a quick experiment and see how the market's gonna gonna respond to something. So I think having that level of of comfort seeing the sort of cycle, you know, kind of going through the beginning of a project realizing there's a lot of ambiguity and then kind of seeing the clarity after you've done that cycle enough times, you you build a muscle, that that helps you to to have that comfort level even in the sort early foggy stages of a new initiative or a new project. So I'd say that that aspect of navigating ambiguity and really building adaptive leaders We like to say human centered design is a bit like the master key. So it kind of helps you unlock, you know, every various industry that you might want to to go into or help you unlock, you know, various conversations or teams, team dynamics through using some of these fundamental principles around empathy and prototyping. And and so if I understand correctly that, like, to to build that muscle of waiting into ambiguity with confidence, you're not, like, over structuring or scaffolding to begin with. It's no, you're do it, and then you start to Okay. Thank you for that. I I also just wanted to comment on the the the meta abilities. It is true for ExperiencePoint at least, our client base is a lot more looking at we might historically, they might have been called soft skills. We might call them power skills. We are others call them performance skills, but, yeah, the those kind of meta abilities and how do various frameworks support in unlocking those meta abilities. The frameworks are really a collection of tools, like like the design process, Jess. It's a collection of tools. This tool can unlock that that habit where you're presented with a problem. You can frame it in a way that's user centered and that's not one of the ways you generate that, that meta ability of, you know, being user centered. Gretchen, thoughts on what's changing about the way you develop leaders you've already given us one example? Yeah. So one other, example is I think a lot of leadership development over time has try to identify where leaders need to improve and how to improve. And I think that's super important, but it also misses the other side of the equation. I think overcoming weaknesses can get us from, you know, not being very effective to effective. But there is the other side of the, equation and that is helping people play to their strengths. And I think that's what can get us from being a to being great. And so we have some various tools that we use to help leaders better understand their unique strengths, talents, and passions. We have one tool called the reflected best self exercise where people get feedback from people in different parts of their life, not just work life, but, family life, friend life, you know, maybe organizations that they're part of in their community, so that they can see who are they when they're at their very best, when they're adding value. And if we can identify those capabilities, then we can help people with not a lot of extra effort to improve their impact. And then find ways to help them crack their jobs around the edges, still getting the content of their work done but then crafting around the edges about how they do their work in a way that allows them to leverage those strengths so that they can do more with less. So I think in answering your questions about changing the way we develop leaders is adding in this piece about helping people to one identify what those strengths and talents and passions are and then two being able to leverage those more in their everyday work lives. Well, thank you for, like, a healthy dose of optimism here, and it is true so many leadership development experts and organizations do start with a gap analysis. So, that it's a great provocation I'm looking forward to learning more about reflective best self. If there are any, Daniel Cable fans out there, his his, book Exceptional goes into depth and a process that an individual can use there as well. I I've found helpful, ExperienceChange facilitator himself, by the way. And Ignacio, this is a a last question before we're gonna turn it over to a q and a for everyone. So please get ready with your questions for the panel. Ignacio, what's changing about how you develop? Okay. No. It's it's the, the word stuck used by Jess, has had a very interesting effect on me. Yeah? Because I mean, yeah, it's it's very often we we meet leaders who say I feel stuck. In the sense that I don't know what to do, what to go, how to do it, etcetera. But the thing is that this is just a symptom. The the key issue is understanding why why this is happening because when it's about ignorance in the sense of I don't know what's ahead then it's about removing uncertainty, right? Then it's about research. But very different is when it's not about ignorance, but when it's about doubt which is the emotional response of the of the of the person. And this is this is completely different and and it it demands a different approach because, and and maybe Jess, this is something you have, experience, too. In many occasions, leaders, they are going to move between dragging and rushing. If you have been stuck for so, so, so long at a certain moment, you are going to let's say move on very quickly. And then the the message is we are not an agile company. We are slow. And the problem is not that you are slow. Problem is that you are late and it doesn't matter very much how how much speed you are going to put at things. You will be late all the time. Then moving backwards, why were you dragging? What was happening that made you feel stuck? Right? So it's it's it's it's more about going in deep into knowing the problem, not not just remaining on the surface, scratching the surface and tackling the symptom, which is going to come back year after year after year, but going very deep and trying to understand why. What's the problem? Why we are stuck? Why I am feeling stuck? Why are we dragging? Right? And and and it's about again, it's not about ignorance. It's not about removing uncertainty, but it's more about this feeling of stuck. Right. I am going to thank you all and I'm gonna open it up if, anyone has any questions for our panel now's the time. Let's get started with Vivek asks, what are signs of a developed leader? Importance, of milestone goals versus, end goals. So what are the signs of a developed human centered leader, let's say And I'm gonna farm that out to whichever panelists would love to take a crack, please. I'll I'll get us started. And I guess I would use the word a developing leader. Like, I I don't know if there's an end state here, I'm a proponent of having a growth mindset, and we've used the word curiosity a lot today. But I I feel like the leadership development journey is a journey over time of learning and developing. And so, I think what we want to aspire is for leaders to be setting those kind of goals that are goals, not where there's a given end, to their development, but maybe where it takes them to the to the next level of being more curious, having more of a growth mindset, and then, of course, being open the learning how would it be a better, supportive, empathetic, trusted, a colleague. So I'll I'll stop there, but developing seems very important, rather than think about it and state of developed. Enveloping versus developed, and it feels like one of those opportunities where what you're developing might be the fuel and the flame of a a strength not just, dousing a an opportunity to do better. So maybe just to build on that, one maybe litmus test is can a leader take a a valley moment and flip it into a peak moment So I'll kind of unpack that a little bit. We had a really cool biotech company that we worked with that was so committed to creating amazing culture for their their employees and their teams. And so we looked at the whole project through the journey of the moments that mattered most to employees. We went in assuming they wanted to know what are the five most important moments to to design for the employee journey. And our assumption was, okay, what are the kind of five peak moments you can establish in somebody's journey with the company that would keep them loyal and, you know, wanting to continue to contribute their talent. What we found was actually the opposite. We found that it was actually those valley moments, those devastating moments where maybe you've just received, you know, a three sixty feedback that's been pretty negative and pretty real and you have some areas of growth. And how do you take that, you know, with a team someone that you're mentoring and say, hey, you know what? Great. This is an amazing moment to, to step into new behaviors to make some commitments to people to invite accountability. And let's take this valley moment and make it a peak moment. Or another person, had a spouse who had stage four cancer. She lived, you know, hours away from the campus, and the company said, hey, let me get you an apartment right downtown you can be close to your spouse, you can make it to work, etcetera. And so what we found was, both from a company level, those moments that you could take a valley moment and turn it into a peak moment, and is based a little bit on the framework, the on the book, Chip and Dan Heath's Power Moments book, which I love. But the idea of how do you how do you flip an a a valid moment into a peak moment. I think is a really key scale of a leader. Yeah. And building on that with the, the thinking fast and slow of Amos Diverski's colleague, Coneman, yeah, that goes into a a lot of depth there into the, the peak end rule and what we can do to flip, those valleys into peaks and how that has an outsized impact. I'm gonna transition us to what might be the last question, but please folks keep these questions coming. We'd love to document them, but there was a a question from Patricia about is it helpful to stop talking about leadership start focusing on the relationship between leaders and led, and Michael asked, how are you approaching developing individual contributors? So Ignacio. I know you do a lot of work at the executive level, but I'm gonna ask you to dig into this one, in terms of developing individual contributors in that relationship between leaders and and led. What is our role there? Well, it's It's it's it's tough in the sense that when we are talking about leadership and leading people, we are talking about what in Latin is called in in the sense that it's, let's say the top dog, right? So, the moment when it's about not creating a vision but and sharing the vision, but creating the vision together with the rest of the team, the rest of the organization you are diluting this this primary position you have at the helm of the organization. Right? Hear the concepts of power, authority of trolley test and power appear. Because at the end of the day, leading is influencing people, make people do. Or, if you want to use another word more, more soft, think about nudging right, influencing. Right? So, the moment we are, discussing the leader and leadership position, things become very tough at the organization because the work is is meant to be done as a team but you cannot have two or three people leading at the time because when when this happens, what we have is confusion and you know that this happens very often. Think think about, a board where you have different, top dogs and each one with his or her own team trying to influence the direction of the company, the strategy goals, etcetera, etcetera. The result is a clash and confusion and you will never make it. Alright? So at the end of the day, you cannot have more than one at the top of a company or in a group or in a team. But the thing is that the one who's leading it's not about creating but it's more about making people create this may say vision, setting the goals, etcetera, and then moving backwards and working together in the strategy set up plan, etcetera, for achieving these goals. Right? But we cannot we cannot discuss the primary position of the leadership position at the top of a company or a team because, therefore, things will work. Lisa, we were if this may be made available, yes, as well as the slides. Gretchen or Jess any final thoughts on on what Ignacio's shared or that that notion of leaders being led? Yes. Do you wanna go or should I? Just one one thought, I guess, one one book that I appreciate is, it's called Multipliers, and it speaks to, you know, kind of how do you get out of the way, as a leader and how do you enhance and invite the the people around you that you're quote leading. And I think that it it to me, I I like to put you know, put the posture of we're we're all leaders in various ways. We may have different size of team that we are responsible for shepherding. But I think the, yeah, the the question of how how can I, become an amplifier of of those around me is a question that I think requires humility require self awareness and it's something that I encourage our my leaders to do? And I'll just jump in really quickly to say I was nodding my completely as as Jess was talking, the, I wrote a book a number of years ago called A Company of Leaders and the idea that we need to build leadership capability wherever somebody happens to sit in the organization. And so whether it's leading yourself or leading a project or leading a team or leading a unit, we all can think about how we are contributors to making the organization a better place to work, more efficient, and more impactful organization. So I like to, going back to the question, that was raised, moving away from thinking about leaders as people at the top people who are in charge to think of us thinking of us all as leaders seems very potent. Right. That is a universal and that expectation of leaders is growing, and so is the definition of leaders. I just wanna say, a quick Thank you to our panelists. I'm gonna sorry, rush through slides. To get to this last one, everyone, you're gonna see a survey come up. And among the questions there, We would love to hear from you how our engagements with you and in the future could be different and better to help you connect with others, connect with concepts, Gretchen, Ignacio, Jess. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us and the community today to everyone that joined. Thank you for making time. And really looking forward to your input and feedback and growing together as a community. Thank you all. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Evening you out. Bye, everybody. Bye, everyone. Have a great day. Bye. Yes. Kiara if we end the meeting now, it should bring up our survey.